Full Transcript
David Savage- Welcome to today's episode of "In Conversation With" where I am joined by Danny Attias. How are you?
Danny Attias- Very good, thank you very much.
- The third time that we've interviewed you, I think.
- Yeah, yep.
- So you've got a water cooler, then a panel event this summer.
- On the rooftop.
- On the rooftop. It's a lovely day today, but I imagine it'd be a bit cold for us. Look, it's always lovely to see you. How are you?
- I'm really good. I am celebrating my one year anniversary at my new job at London Business School. So I've got through the first year that's a result I've passed my probation.
- How have you found that first year?
- It's been brilliant. It's been my first time in the education sector. I was previously a not for profit with Anthony Nolan, the blood cancer charity. So there were some similarities definitely that allowed continuity. It felt reasonably familiar, but also different in different ways. Being surrounded by so many brilliant minds every day, students, alumni, faculty, of course, it's a different context to be working in and in a sector that is got some really tough digital competition on the horizon, but that digital competition doesn't have legacy estates and legacy systems and legacy culture and silos to deal with. So I find the sector, the university sector in particular, very collaborative. So that's really, really nice. A very similar to the charity sector in that sense. And they're kind of supporting each other and we are trying to get ahead of the curve. But you've got this competition coming up ahead and how do we move faster is the balance and the challenge.
- Out of interest, how much interactional feedback do you get from the students? 'cause I suppose that's a population that is quite different to anything that you might have experienced previously. If I think back to my university days, we went to university thought, "Oh my God, the internet speeds were amazing. This is incredible." And now fast forward, what are we about 19 years since I went to university, people probably going, going to university, going, "Oh, it's not quite as quick as I have at home, and so on."
- Yeah. I think that really, I mean, that applies for all universities since they became fee... paying. The students are paying fees, for a business school, our fees are a little bit higher, the expectations are a little bit higher, and we've got com competition in the likes of Harvard and MIT and Yale, so we work pretty hard to get student feedback. We can't always move as quickly. You've got legacy slowing you down. I suppose what my team and I try to do is modernise our tech stack, transform our digital platform so that we can be a bit more adaptive so that we get feedback from students and we can pivot and change and really listen to the customer and be customer driven. That's quite hard work, but keeping that ear to the ground and and maintaining that voice of the customer is essential.
- But I suppose it's also a huge advantage, perhaps because you look at an organisation like ours, I've been here for 16 years, since I left university. I try and stay fresh in my thinking, but you become institutionalised. You've got a constantly changing population there that can continually kind of push the organisation forward.
- We know who our students are, our current students, obviously we don't know our future students. We know who our alumni are, and most of them are leaders in their own field, particularly digital transformation. So they're reaching out and saying, "How can we support you? How can we take things along?" So just having that direct connection and then shifting to that focus of that voice of the customer is easier when you know who the customer is, but more difficult because you know who the customer is so they can come back and look you in the eye and go, "Why haven't you done something about it?" So it's great though. I mean, having access to those customers directly is really useful.
- So here we are sitting talking towards the end of 2022. I don't think the pandemic is over, but the threat of lockdown has subsided and it feels like there's an element of getting back to normal, even though normal has changed. In terms of leadership, how have you led by example over the course of this year in terms of this first year in this role? What do you think leadership by example looks like in this slightly changed environment?
- It's a good question. I mean, there are members of my team haven't even met yet because they've been remote, I haven't met face to face, haven't met in past.
- Which would never have happened private.
- It would've been unthinkable. And our recruitment is happening all over the country. So there are loads of real differences. I suppose when I started, I had to understand the culture of the department. I had to understand the culture of the entire organisation and how that compared to where I was previously. It was easier last time because I was able to go through that transformation with them as we went into the pandemic, as we started to evolve out of it. I've tried to be consistent. I've tried to be consistent in what I say and what I do so that when people see me doing something, it correlates with what I'm saying. And I'm also trying to be mindful that yeah, we've got some change, culture needs to change and we need to adapt and become more modern. But equally there is talent in the room. There is so much depth of capability in the room. How do we go on that journey together? I'll give you one small example and it's kind of pandemic-related is when I started this, the school was trying to get everyone back on campus two days a week. So there was a real, you know, "We would like you in two days a week. We would like you in to have focus days and so on." And I just realised this was grating. The biggest gift the department had been given is the ability to work flexibly and the ability to work remotely. And so I was probably about two months in and I just said to the department, "I'm never gonna talk about where you work again. We're all adults. We'll make our own decisions. What works for us, let's move on and focus on the transformation and not talk about things that are bureaucratic and very top down."
- On that point though, there are certain things that are unavoidable in terms of how environments have changed. And whilst there you talk about, I don't wanna talk about where people are based. And I know that previously from from our comments, you said, it's kind of a boring conversation to have now where we're at, but during the pandemic there were those reports that working from home was bad for inclusion, it was bad for gender in particular. There was a reversion to gender stereotypes and so on.
- Yeah.
- Sitting where we are now, do you think there's been a net deficit or a net positive for inclusion across technology?
- Across the industry? I don't know. I mean, it's difficult to say. I can only talk from my own experience and I think that we have to work at inclusion and I can talk a little bit about the type of things that I've done to try and shift the dial on inclusion and gender representation at seniority and so on, but let's not talk about where you have to work, where you have to be on any given day. That's boring. Let's create a reason, a pull, an attraction to come in. Let's create events that make it worthwhile. There is no doubt when you meet people face to face, there is more you can do. There is no doubt that if you're a team of developers and you're working remotely, you can be a hell of a lot more efficient as well. There are all these pros and cons and kind of the discussion about them. I think the discussion about them can be boring. I think it's about what we make out of it. And we've got some people who the benefits of being remote all the time is huge on their personal life and their wellbeing and others who like to come in and they're coming in every single day or three days a week. So I think we need to focus not on the "where are they", but the, "what opportunities are we giving people" and making sure people aren't slipping into receding into the background. Is everyone looked out for? Is everyone getting an opportunity or are other people who are coming in getting more opportunities than the people who aren't coming in and what about new starters? How do we get them engaged? And just really constantly finding ways and that changes and that adapts all the time.
- So as a C-suite leader in tech, what do you think the building blocks or the foundations of an inclusive environment, what must it include?
- So it has to include, and it's very hard, it's easy to say, it has to include brutal openness, transparency, integrity. So people have got to be able to say what they feel. They have to be able to say what they think. If you don't have that, you don't know what's going on. You're guessing, you're second guessing what people are thinking, what they're feeling, what their aspirations are. I've had people that I've asked, "What do you wanna do? What are your aspirations? What do you want to become?" And they say, "I've never been asked that question before." And that's happened on multiple occasions, not just one person. And you think after 10, 15 years, no one's ever really said, "What do you wanna do?" Now, whether that's in person or online, does it matter? The fact is we're having those conversations and then we're listening and then we're working with them. We're looping back and go, "Look, this opportunity's opening up. You said you're interested in that. How can we help you get there?" So that environment and getting to the point where you are hearing, you're asking the questions and you are receiving that insight is so crucially important.
- Do you think because organisations are worried about quiet quitting or the great resignation or you know, then they are more open to listening at the moment? And I suppose if that's the case, maybe cynically, maybe not, but how do we make sure that that continues and it isn't just a phase that we're going through as we return to whatever this kind of new rhythm is, but it becomes part of the DNA of organisations?
- I think if we think about the great resignation, we think about quiet quitting and all these things, actually the great resignation pushed a lot of people through our doors. They're going, "Hey, this is a organisation with purpose. They're making a difference to the way business is done, the way business impacts the world. This is great." So, so that really worked in our favour. Yes, quiet quitting. I can earn more money somewhere else, especially with the cost of living crisis means actually everyone's gotta earn a little bit more money to even stand still makes it a little bit more difficult. The people will opt out, people will say, "You know what, I don't like the direction of travel. I don't like the way you're working. I'm gonna opt out that I'm gonna go elsewhere." and that's okay. Right? So, some people choosing to leave is okay and actually when people leave we celebrate it. So whenever anyone resigns or chooses to leave, we celebrate it. They're taking the next step in their journey and that's okay. Rather than feeling that's a bad thing. Why are they leaving? When we get someone new, we don't go, "Oh my God, that's terrible. They just left somewhere. What are you doing here?" They go, "Oh isn't it brilliant you've joined our organisation." So we celebrate when someone leaves or someone joins and that's okay. What we do need to do is making sure people aren't left behind. We have to make sure there are opportunities for them to learn, to grow, to develop. There are opportunities for them to share where the pinch points are. So making sure that we are considerate and what we try and do is create a more open team or collaboration. Now I'm in an environment that historically has been very top down. So people are waiting to be told what to do. People are waiting to be told what the priorities are. So we say, "It's okay, you can set the priorities, let's agree how we're organised." That doesn't work because you can't just say that, can't just walk into a room, I have learned, you can't just walk in a room and go, "You are all free, play the game." And they go, "Well we dunno what the rule of the game is. Are we on this pitch or are we on that pitch? And that starts to make things really difficult. So, what we are doing is we're working with the team to try and kind of shape and form the rules of the game. And then you go, "Now go and do your thing." You know what the boundaries are, you know what the rules are and that's when we start to open up, and that takes time. Okay, I'm a year in, it's taking time to get there, but it's starting to open up and you know, you can come in with lots of energy and enthusiasm and promises, but you gotta face the hard realities of not everything's changing as quickly for everyone. So, for some people things are amazing. For some people, absolutely nothing's changed, whatsoever. It's exactly the same today as it was a year ago. So you've gotta recognise that and have that honest conversation and ask "What what can we do to help you through that?"
- I think the thing that chimes there is listening to you talking is this idea maybe of considerate leadership one that is still has structure, still has expectations, but is a little kinder perhaps than we were.
- When I'm in, I spend a lot of time talking with people as much as I can and not because I'm a leader and I should sort speak to people 'cause I'm genuinely interested, right? They've got an insight that we don't necessarily have and spend a lot of time trying to take that conversation outside of, "I'm your boss and you know, you are my employee" and really go, "What do you wanna do?" And giving them advice. Sometimes that advice is "You wanna get out of here and do something completely different" or, "I can find you at a better opportunity" or "I can get you outta that team," which is gonna really hurt that team in a bad way. But I'll give you one one example. I actually do this outside of my department. I do this across the whole organisation. So some departments will kind of look at me and go, "Oh hold on, why are you talking people out my department?" But I'm looking for people who've got this kind of incredible raw talent it's happened a few times now, but they're kind of stuck where they are in a particular department or a particular field. And I go, "There's an opportunity there that A, is not being met and you would be a perfect fit. You could make a fundamental difference and create that opportunity and follow it through." And what was really interesting for me is I would have a conversation with our CEO, Dean, about opportunities like this, sometimes in his own department on people he's really dependent on. And he goes, "That's brilliant. That's doing what we say. that is developing." So he goes, "Well we'll deal with it, we'll deal with the gap. That's okay." So getting that really from the top allows you to kind of cascade that culture all the way down. There's some consistency in messaging there.
- We've been talking for a little while that skill sets are changing in terms of the skills that organisations are looking for. Before we hit record, you mentioned that you are putting time and resource into an apprenticeship programme, right?
- Yeah.
- So why is that?
- Okay, so we launched an apprenticeship programme to the school. It's around data, so data literacy, data skills. Originally the programme was predominantly deep data skills, machine learning, Python R, technical stuff. And I thought, "Well that's okay, but it's not particularly accessible." This is for existing staff just to say at the moment. And I'll explain why, but that's okay. But it's not particularly accessible because how do you get people to got all this energy? They understand the organisation, they need to learn data skills. Most of, not all, but most of them are not gonna say, "Yeah, sure, send me, sign me up for some coding and machine learning", right? They're gonna go, that's for the technical people. So I worked with the partner to create a simplified version of that course, pretty much the first half, spread over a year and we created something that was fully accessible. We then got buy-in from the entire leadership. This is one day a week of study. So, it's a significant amount of effort for a whole year and then opened up to the entire school, pitched it, and we got real huge amount of interest and in the end, 5% of the entire workforce have signed up and on this apprenticeship, 69% female. Now that wouldn't have happened and I know, 'cause I've got the data, it wouldn't have happened if we'd just gone in with the machine learning and the coding. So creating that, and now all the school gets the benefit of retention, of more engaged employee, and people who really understand data to help us go through our digital transformation. But the individuals get an opportunity to really take a complete turn on their careers that they may be doing an administrative role, which is predominantly focused on spreadsheets. Now they've got some serious data skills which can make them significantly more marketable and enable their development in the future.
- I mean, just speculating, there's often those stats that men will apply to jobs that they don't have the skills for far more readily than women. Is there something about apprenticeships because you're not applying, you are going through a programme that gives you skills that I suppose can help build a more equitable workforce?
- There's an element of that, but there's also an element of "Click here if you're interested to just find out more." Now I've got all the names of the people who click to say hey found out more. Now I look at the gap between the people that were interested to find out more but didn't follow up. There'll be a mis-balance of male and female there. So I go speak to them one by one, anywhere in the organisation and go, "So what drew your attention?" And they're like, "Oh, I don't think I'll be a good enough. I think that'll be too complicated. I don't think my boss will give me enough time." Like, "We will clear the deck, we will support you, we will give you a coach." And then really encouraging them. And we did that with a number of people and got them signed up. Otherwise if you just kind of put it out there and go, "Here's a software engineer role. Apply and you get 80% male" and you go, "Well they're mostly male, what can I do about it?" You've gotta go out and put in the effort to get that balance. So, another example is a really big fan of people who, mid-career, retrain as software developers because again, that accessibility, that... sorry, not accessibility, but that diversity in the applicant pool and also that lived experience they're taking, they might been a teacher or a lawyer or worked in marketing a whole load of different backgrounds and now they've got these software development skills and they're usually pretty good. And you know what? They're up to date. They're not carrying any baggage. They're not carrying 20 years, they're not carrying 20 years of software development experience, but they're also not carrying 20 years worth of software development practise baggage and bringing those people into the organisation. So in fact, when I started a year ago, I said one of the things I said to the department is I'd got my last team up to 50% female, software development team, sorry, up to 50% female. And the existing developers freaked out about, well, 'cause we were at 12.5%. They're like, "I assume you're gonna increase the size of the team then, are we gonna lose our jobs to make space for women in the team? What's going on here?" And like it's fine, it'll get there. Now a year on we are at 44% female in that same team, haven't fired anyone, right? A lot of the original members of the team, some people opted out, some people didn't like the direction of travel and we got people who have re-skilled. So making that shift, making that change, talking about it actually helps, right? So it's not just, "Oh well let's just all talk", talking about it sets an intention, but then finding friendship opportunities, retraining opportunities across the organisation, inside technology, outside it. You just gotta actively work on that. And once you've done that, it starts to open up. When people see other people start to move around, then I've had taps on the shoulder going, "I've noticed that you, you're helping some people really, can we have a chat? Can we see if there are any other?" And it's not always in technology, by the way, it might be elsewhere. So I really like that. And to be fair, that's probably where I get my biggest buzz. So out of everything that I do, the ability to help someone on the next step, I've been very lucky in my career. A lot of that comes from privilege. Some of that comes from competence as well. But yeah, I'm white male, privately educated, I have had every opportunity at my doorstep. So you go, "No, no, it's just talent." It's not just talent, right? I could have all the talent in the world but if I was born in the wrong place in a different environment, I wouldn't have had as much opportunity. The chances of that level of success would've been significantly smaller. So taking my privilege and using it to help other people get a step up is huge for me. But also helping other people really understand their privilege and how they can use it to help others have a step up is pretty much my kind of core driver.
- One final question and I'll apologise in advance 'cause it's a bit hypothetical and it's a bit vague, but I'd be interested to see what you say. You are well aware Nash Squared have the digital leadership report every single year. You're someone who's been included in the CIO top 100. So someone who's very much part of that industry, what would you hope that the report would say about the industry this year?
- Well you mentioned CIO 100 and this year we finally have a woman at the top. I mean it took her a long time.
- Joanna from The Hut Group?
- Yeah, Joanna Drake and at number two as well and that I'm like, "what took so long? And a part of that is proportionality and so on. I hope we are now not just talking about the importance of diversity and inclusion, but actually seeing a difference. 'Cause once you start you wanna keep that momentum going. So I'm really hopeful that we are start to see a shift in those practises and more inclusivity and that and that digital leaders understand that it's not something you should do, but it's something you must do. You need to do it. It is crucial for all of us.
- Look, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you as it always is.
- Thank you David.
- Thank you for taking the time to come into our pop-up studio.
- Appreciate it.
- If you've enjoyed today's episode of the show, please do have a look around the website. There's plenty more content.
